Question about astrology?

Question

Astrology can for starters simply be the placebo effect playing its part, right? Astrology claims that your going to be a certain way based on date of birth and time of birth but that takes away your free will. If you believe in free will you can not believe in astrology, they simply contradict each other. You have no control over the date and time in which you were born so how can someone say that this can dictate someone's personality?

Answer 1

Although your understanding of astrology is limited, you make a good point. This has been a buagaboo for astrologers since at least the time of St. Augustine of Hippo (4th century AD). But a good point or a valid criticism is not the same as a complete negation and the problem is more complex.



Your objection is philosophical so let's look at this the way a philosopher might. What is free will? Most people confuse free will with free whim. They are not the same. Yes I can choose to jump in front of an ongoing train to prove a point (the last one I will prove), but that isn't the same as free will. Free will has more to do with how I think and secondarily, how I act.



Way too much emphasis is placed on the almighty personality in today's astrology. But if we grant that is what astrology does (I don't buy that for a minute), let's reverse the question a bit: does Freud deny free will? We have no control over how we are raised and the "nurture" crowd in the nature vs nurture debate, says this determines our personality and our future actions and beliefs. If they are correct, and to some extent it seems they are, do we really have free will? Telling an habitual liar they don't have to lie only makes sense to people who don't habitually lie. The liar nods eagerly, and goes right out and tells another lie. If he breaks down a bit he might tearfully say, "I cant' help it." And some psychologists believe that.



One philosopher, said, "Man has a free will just not the will to use it." I really like this statement and it plays into the astrology vs free will debate. Suppose you go to an astrologer at age 25 and you ask about your financial situation. He tells you that at about age 35 - 40 you can expect a period of deep financial difficulty. He is NOT telling you that no matter what you will experience 10 years of poverty, although in the middle ages or before that might be the case since they would have had so many fewer options. He's telling you the bad times are coming. Being a bright type you heed the warning. After all, if the astrologer is wrong, there is nothing wrong with saving money.



The bad financial times may come, but if you prepare, the loss of a job or lengthy injury that prevents you from working or having a huge problem with your home, it lessens the effects of the difficulty. You may still be in financial difficulty, but it becomes more manageable because you prepared. Or you can do nothing live lavishly because astrology is hokum and when the difficult times come, you moan.



In all the above scenarios, you've followed your free will. The bad financial times can be said to be a product of your will as you lived as though there was no tomorrow or simply didn't plan for the future. Fate may have broken your leg and kept you from working or did something else that harmed you financially, but your lack of planning did the real dirty work. Did you need the astrologer? Not really. Smart people sacrifice today for benefits tomorrow without astrologers and some put away money for emergencies without consulting the stars. Good for them.



OK what about other things besides money? Suppose the astrologer predicts a bad marriage. This is trickier, but if you enter marriage blindly (like most) and it turns out bad or good, you've used your free will either way. Ahh but can you turn a prediction for a bad marriage into a good marriage? Yes, but it takes time and timing. Then there is the possibility that the marriage will be bad not because the couple has chosen poorly, but because of events beyond their control, e.g. the accidental death of a child is not easy to overcome and many don't. Whether that is fated or not, free will has little to do with what caused the resulting divorce or worse.



The biggest problem with fate vs free will is that the free will crowd denies fate. Fate exists, too. Ask anyone born with diabetes.



William Lilly the famous 17th century English astrologer used to say often, "The stars foretell, they do not compel." And they do not negate free will.

Answer 2

This is a form of baloney detection of ten questions by Michael Shermer. Publisher of Skeptic Magazine. Try to find any factual claim made by proponents of astrology. Assuming this is about the "Modern Western" type. What are the claims? Is a there a list? Take one at a time and see how well each stands up.



THE TEN QUESTIONS



1. How reliable is the source of the claim?



2. Does the source make similar claims?



3. Have the claims been verified by somebody else?



4. Does this fit with the way the world works?



5. Has anyone tried to disprove the claim?



6. Where does the preponderance of evidence point?



7. Is the claimant playing by the rules of science?



8. Is the claimant providing positive evidence?



9. Does the new theory account for as many phenomena as the old theory?



10. Are personal beliefs driving the claim?



Nothing is ever 100% certain. Science seeks consistent results that passes testing. A 95% threshold is desired to be called scientific fact. What percentage is good enough for an astrology fact seems to be far less. In astrology consistency is not desired. The goal for astrologers is not accuracy but satisfied customers. Pay up front and get them to come back. There is no need to test and make changes based on new evidence. Or admit that they are ever wrong.

Answer 3

Like Dechovka said, Astrology has been a great help for me to understand myself and why I do what I do , I know there is free will involved and it is not an excuse or reason for something I have done but still I got to know I am more prone to certain things in this life.It also help me aware of my weakness and potential pitfalls and also my strengths so I can make good use of them. Astrology also helps me understand others better and how to relate to them . I am spiritual in a sense that I do follow some buddha teachings. Maybe I dont follow them full on now, but still I try to seek contentment in myself. I am also trying to understand that certain things in life do not appear as they are, most of the time, I seek for the true meaning behind everything people say or do or how things happen/turn out the way they do . I also believe in a higher being ( not neccessarily The God that we know about - man, this one is one irritated god - my way or the hight way road ) , this higher being for me is nature and karma. I believe there are things that we can not explain or take a hold. This higher being is universal and us , as individual human being , is wired or connected to each other this way. I believe in the union of the souls. I feel that we have many lives , when this life ends, we will continue to live another one, completely physically separated of this life, but the soul is still the same but lay dormat/sub-concious and if we are lucky, sometimes we may have a moment where we know we " have been there before " So in a way , spirituality and astrology is connected as everything else in the universe. In this case, the nodes have their role and also the moon and neptune , the 12th house....if we are able to full understand the 12th house and its planets placements....I think maybe we could take a peek into our own spirituality.

Answer 4

>Nothing is ever 100% certain. <



YA's resident science worshiper has never heard of gravity.



>Science seeks consistent results that passes testing. A 95% threshold is desired to be called scientific fact.<



That is nonsense and cannot be found in any legitimate scientific work. It is an outrageously idiotic claim that bears no resemblance to the truth, but truth is the last thing a propagandist wants to hear. . Chain just made up that "statistic," and if he or they have any decency at all he or they will withdraw the entire post. It is embarrassing to anyone with a brain and no legitimate scientist would support it.



For the record in statistics the criteria is "greater than chance." That's it. In the applied sciences the criteria that he mentions is unknown.

Answer 5

Astrology appears to be more fatalistic than it is because today's astrology is constructed from Greek and medieval cultures. Antares hinted at this. People living in the industrialized democracies have far more opportunity to exercise their free will than did the people living as astrology developed. Most people then were concerned with survival and what happened to them was pretty much unavoidable.



A man who used to write about financial things and using the pen name "Adam Smith" wrote "Money increases your options." This is undeniable. Wealth and prosperity increase our options to a far greater extent than was available to most hundreds of years ago - even one hundred years ago. Therefore what was developed before we had such general prosperity and upward social mobility, is less likely to reflect it.



Edit: THE TEN QUESTIONS



1. How reliable is the source of the claim?

Well Chain how reliable are your claims about astrology? About as reliable as a broken watch I'd say. This is subjective.



2. Does the source make similar claims?

???????????? What's the point?



3. Have the claims been verified by somebody else?

And if they have and you don't want to believe them, don't.



4. Does this fit with the way the world works?

Subjective. Please explain how the world works. Of course if you explain it in such a way that precludes the claim - you win. Right? No argument or evidence necessary. It can't be true so it isn't true.



5. Has anyone tried to disprove the claim?

I've disproved most of Chain's claims and perhaps all of them since his claims are absurd. So what?



6. Where does the preponderance of evidence point?

Consensus is the antithesis of science.



7. Is the claimant playing by the rules of science?

This is a religious assertion that science is the final arbiter of all truth and since there is no scientific evidence to support that claim - it is false. Your rules not mine.



8. Is the claimant providing positive evidence?

And if he does and you don't like it, ignore it or ridicule it and attack the person who provides it. Never, ever examine it objectively.



9. Does the new theory account for as many phenomena as the old theory?

Does this author know the difference between a claim (hypotheses) and a theory? Doubtful. Again this is consensus and consensus is the antithesis of science.



10. Are personal beliefs driving the claim?

Subjective. How would you know? But this is handy when you can't refute what you wish to. It can't be true so it isn't true is your motto at all times, so when all else fails, claim personal belief like believing the Skeptical Inquirer is an objective journal.

Answer 6

Obviously, you don't understand how Western astrology approaches astrology.



What you are talking about is the WRONG way to use astrology.

Sidereal/Hindu/Vedic astrology uses it this way .. but then the Hindu paradigm is that everything is fated anyway.

Which is probably why their astrology is fatalistic.



Westerners believe in free will.

And they regard astrology as an influence on us .. and that the chart indicates only the way in which we feel our inner needs and how these different inner needs interact.

Therefore, astrology is properly used as a platform for beginning to look within yourself and learning to understand who you are and what you need.

In Tropical/Western astrology, there is an old saying: "The stars impel. They do not compel." Which means that the chart is not a controlling influence .. .but it is an influence. How much? That depends on how self-aware you are. The more self-aware you are, the more YOU chose and control yourself. And the choices that you make .. these are the factors that influence what happens to you in life.



Western astrology looks at the influence this way:

Every moment has its own unique quality, and the chart shows that quality. When we take our first breath, the quality of that moment is imprinted on us. As an influence. Therefore we TEND to feel and act like our chart .. but free will is King and is the ultimate control. Not that many people really USE free will. But examining your chart helps you understand your internal dynamics and the more you know yourself, the more you are in control.



It is not astrology that robs us of our free will .. it is failing to see ourselves clearly.

Since we tend to repress and deny any unpleasant feelings, including feelings about ourselves, very few people actually DO see themselves clearly. The examination of your own birth chart forces you to open up and look inside with a critical eye ... that chart says "this" ... is that actually true? .. you cannot answer this question unless you open up and look inside with a critical honest eye.

Answer 7

I don't think you even begin to understand astrology from what you've said. Your birth chart can tell you what challenges you face and how you can improve your life. It cannot tell you that today you're going to meet someone who'll change your life etc nor can it predict the future for you.